The Emmy winner speaks about the Paramount+ hit’s upcoming season, a possible New Orleans spinoff, and working with Sylvester Stallone: “This is basically who he is, right?”
Sure, Yellowstone gets all the press. But Tulsa King has been the other not-so-secret crown jewel in the Taylor Sheridan universe.
The Paramount+ drama’s 2022 first season nearly matched Yellowstone prequel 1883 in ratings (with 3.36 billion minutes streamed) for its tale of exiled mobster Dwight “The General” Manfredi (Sylvester Stallone), who is gradually building a crime empire in Oklahoma along with a likable crew of misfits. Emmy-winning writer Terence Winter deserves plenty of credit for the show’s success — he served as showrunner during season one, left the show (citing scheduling conflicts) and then returned as writer and executive producer for the season two (which begins streaming Sept. 15).
The Sopranos and Boardwalk Empire veteran spoke to The Hollywood Reporter via Zoom about why the show’s second season (trailer, below) will be even stronger than the first, reveals what he learned about writing from Stallone, and — in a bit of news — confirms a Tulsa King spinoff is being discussed.
I like to think that when you’re on a Zoom call with a TV executive and they try to tell you how to write something, that you just turn and point to all those Emmys back there on your shelf.
It doesn’t help, honestly. And I have to get them back to the rental shop by 11.
So, I watched your season two premiere and if you can just do an entire episode of Stallone explaining classic poems (like Dwight does during a scene in the opener), that would be great.
That’s one of the fun things about writing this character. I’ve met more than a couple of guys who spent a lot of time in jail. They’re unbelievably well read — because that’s all there is to do. You lock somebody in a cell, they’ll read the phone book. Dwight is way smarter than you would expect. He’s read everything, and he’s not shy about sharing that.
What excites you about season two of this show?
We got to know all these different characters and set the table. Now this is where the fun starts. You can start building on those relationships, we can get into the backstories, and we see them develop and get faced with more challenges and conflicts. It’s always funny when you watch the original pilot for something and, clearly, the actors didn’t know each other. You watch the original pilot of Happy Days and Fonzie is wearing a windbreaker — he’s not Fonzie until like season three.
Every show has a learning curve, as you say, but was there anything specific to the writing of this show that you learned during the first season where you were like, “Oh, this does or doesn’t work.”
Giving Dwight surprising knowledge or surprising dialogue is always fun. I think the audience really loves it. The other thing is seeing his character in situations that are familiar to the rest of us — like you never get to see a mob boss deal with the DMV, or have to wait in line at Starbucks. It’s fun to see him navigate the world that the rest of us have to navigate.
Something I noticed last season is that Stallone — a man who has never been acclaimed for his speech — really knows how to deliver a line of dialogue. Like if you give him a joke, you give him a threat, you set him up with something fun, and the man just kills it.
One of the first things he said when we met is that people know him as Rocky or Rambo and that “I don’t think people even know that I can actually talk.” So the idea that he has these big monologues and chunks of comedy, it was really a pleasure for him. When he read the pilot, he said, “This fits me like a tailor-made suit. This is who I am in real life — if I were a mobster.” So, that he’s comfortable with it and comfortable saying it makes me feel good as a writer. This is basically who he is, right?
You also have added Neal McDonough this season, who I loved in Band of Brothers. He’s one of those actors that even if he’s playing a bad guy, you want to like him.
Yeah, he comes in under the radar. He’s got that smile. He’s probably halfway through threatening you before you realize that he’s threatening you. Somebody pointed out to me that he doesn’t blink. I was like, “Oh, that’s what it is.” He’s got those laser blue eyes. He’s so intense. He was an actor I’ve been wanting to work with for years. When you’re casting for somebody to go up against Sylvester Stallone, they got to have gravitas. Sometimes you see an actor go up against another actor and you can see one of them shrinking. That’s not the case with Neal and Sly. And same thing with Frank Grillo, who also joins the cast again.
Stallone isn’t shy about pushing for what he wants. Was there anything he wanted for season two? Was there a Fonzie windbreaker he didn’t think was working?
We were pretty much on the same page with who Dwight was right from the beginning. He knows that character better than I do, in some ways — what Dwight would do or not do. He’s incredibly detail oriented in terms of the scripts. He’ll give me ideas, or embellish things, or say, “I would say this a different way.” You don’t just get an actor with Sly. You get a director, a writer, a producer, an editor — he’s done everything. So he’s really an incredible partner to have, as he just understands the craft of filmmaking in general. He understands who he is, what his audience wants to see, what works for him, and what doesn’t.
Is there anything, dare I ask, that you learned from him? He once taught me about the value of a quality black T-shirt.
That sometimes less is more. I might tend to overwrite a little bit. I like to hear myself talk. Sometimes being a man of few words is good. He understands that he can say something with a look that might take me a paragraph, or just by walking in the door.
Another person known for being hands on is the show’s creator, Taylor Sheridan. Is he letting you do your own thing, more or less, this season?
Taylor wrote the original version of the pilot, gave it to me, and said, “Take it and run with it.” And I did. I literally only met Taylor, in person, one time — and that was two-and-a-half years ago. We just went off and did the show with Sly and I hear Taylor likes it. He’s certainly got enough on his plate for him to worry about what we’re doing over in Tulsa.
I heard there was some conversation between everybody during that first season about tone. How dramatic is this show? How comedic? I know some were surprised when the show was branded by Paramount+ as a comedy. What’s your feeling on this?
It’s so hard to quantify what’s a comedy, what’s a drama. It’s really sometimes impossible. I guess the word is “dramedy.” The comedy in this show doesn’t come from setup and punchline. It’s the comedy born of Sly navigating the world and hearing his take on the world. He’s not joking. He’s serious, but it happens to be funny. I just write it as if he’s a real person, and these are his real opinions.
One cool thing about the show — and you might absolutely hate this description and think it’s wrong — but Tulsa King feels like it takes some of the popular and accessible elements that make CBS crime dramas so popular and run for years and years, and then blends it with elements from a prestige cable-style drama. It feels like a CBS-premium hybrid.
I don’t hate that at all. The show is wildly accessible. First, the fact we’ve got Stallone as the lead — he’s so charming and is loved all over the world. It’s kind of comforting in a way. That’s kind of the CBS thing — the show feels good. You feel like, “I like this guy, I like his world, I just like watching him.” Then you add more of the premium cable stuff. So it’s a little more complicated situations, a little more adult dialogue — not just the cursing, but more elevated in the subject matter and how the stories play out. I get how you come away with that and I don’t think it’s a bad description.
Speaking of that, I heard you were working on a Tulsa King spinoff set in New Orleans. Is there any truth to that?
There’s been some talk of that. That’s in the talking stages.
That would be interesting because — going back to the CBS hybrid idea — the way CBS has been able to franchise cop shows to different cities. It would be clever to do that with a “robber” show instead — same idea, but from the “bad guy” perspective.
I’m just looking forward to getting those beignets in New Orleans.
I was looking at your IMDB. Is The Godmother project still in the works with Jennifer Lopez? Or did the Netflix series on the same subject (Griselda starring Sofía Vergara) whack it?
Oh, we were going to do that several years ago, then we got beaten to the punch by the Sofía Vergara version. So I don’t think that’s ever gonna happen.
Got it. Any other Tulsa King season two thoughts before we sign off?
I’m really proud of how the season plays out. Watch for the character development. There are some big events and big emotional changes that happen with our characters. If you like these people in season one, you’ll like them even more in season two, because you really get to know them on a much deeper level. We’ve got such an incredible lineup with a deep bench of really talented actors. For me, the challenge is that we’ve only got a certain amount of real estate in which to showcase everybody. But I think we did a good job this season of letting everybody spread their wings and really flex those muscles.